Ghost of a flea

Ghost:
before you're overcome by your Churchillian rhethoric, care to explain what strategic value Gibralter has in the early 21st century?
xavier

Xavier: good question with a simple answer. Gibraltar has exactly the same strategic value it had in September of 1939.

There was a referendum with one of the fairest questions I've seen:
http://support.gibraltar.gov.uk/lastest.htm

If Britain handed it over, it would be a betrayal of its own history and of any conception of democratic ideals.

As for how useful it is... well, in 1939, the Royal Navy still had (by a very small margin) the world's largest fleet.

Still, it doesn't cost anything and it may well be very useful sometime. So let democracy govern.

I still regard the handover of Hong Kong to fascist China as a betrayal. At least that move had the legitimacy of a treaty. Spain has no democratic or treaty right to Gibraltar but evinces an astonishing hypocrisy given its north African possessions.

As for the contemporary utility of Gibraltar as a military base one might ask the same question of the United States Navy presence at Rota. The Royal Navy remains one of the only such forces in the world that is nuclear capable and one of only two in whose hands I would entrust the shipping of the straights of Gibraltar. This last question of trust is a matter of opinion but one I would be confident to defend.

Alas, Flea, the British haven't believed in themselves or their institutions since the generation raised before 1914.

(And they gave up the game right when they were about to fix the stuff for which they are legitimately (and loudly) criticized -- all the 'isms -- racism, sexism, and so on.)

They guarded the straits of Gibraltar as well as they guarded the Straits of Malacca.

Spain has a better treaty right to Gibraltar than did the Chinese to Hong Kong. Under the Treaty of Utrecht, they have a right to re-enter should the British ever leave. China, on the other hand, had a right to the New Territories after the lease expired. Hong Kong island was to be British in perpetuity.

Solution: don't leave Gibraltar, of course. :-)

This is what I deserve for writing in haste! I stand corrected on the issue of treaty rights to Hong Kong. You are quite right, of course.

I'm with you all the way on this one, Nick.

Here, here. Tony Blair's government would sell Gibraltar for a licorice pop if they thought they could get away with it. I worked in the House of Commons during the period when Blair and Jack Straw were coddling Spain and refused to acknowledge the will of Gibraltans to stay British.

Spanish harrassment of Gibraltar only reinforces the obvious fact that Spain's disrespect for self-determination shows no grounds for a return.

Gibraltar remains a strategically important base, especially since Spain won't respect Moroccan claims to islands just off their coast, and therefore undermines the ability of Spain to work with Morocco to combat terrorism.

If Spain ever rose beyond the level of a mediocre, appeasing sell-out power, perhaps they could earn enough of Gibraltar's respect to ASK them what they thought.

What Gibraltar now needs is representation in Parliament.

Gibraltar is what the people of Gibraltar want it to be.

British and Spanish governments be damned.

Just like the Falklands.

The British government has responsibilities here, not rights.

Ghost:
Thanks but I flatly disagree. Gibralter has NO strategic value since the Brits and French ceded control of the Suez. I wrote in my post that if you and Keegan really want to reassure me get the British to patrol the Mallacan straits
As for self determination well both the PSOE and the conservatives are total idiots. If they freak out with Catalan and Basque demands for self government, the Gibralterans would drive both political parties nuts. which would be great :)
One last thing, enough of the insults and cultivate moderates like me who aren't blind to the threat of islamojihadism
I'm the only Canadian blogger that voted in the Spanish election. I didn't vote for either national party and the 11-M merely reinforced the correctness of my decision.
xavier

Hi Xavier: nothing in what I have said should be construed as insulting. That said, it is not my intention to cultivate your opinion either. I believe you are mistaken about the strategic value of Gibraltar but that is down to the UK MOD. Regardless, the primary basis of my support for Gibraltar is, and always has been, the democratically expressed will of the people of Gibraltar. It may amuse you that their place in Spanish democracy would irritate parties you oppose but that is totally insufficient cause to drag them into Spain after 300 years.

And another thought. I am a Canadian who voted in the last two UK elections. This means my vote counts rather more than yours in this matter. Unfortunately, it also means it counts more than the votes of Gibraltar's people. It is their democratic will that must be upheld.

BTW, Gib votes in the European Union electiosn which really really p****s off the Spanish.
Here in Portugal we're still waitingfor the Spanish to hand back some land they said they would hand back in 1905 or whenever:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2382/poofespi.htm
And if you ever want to get a Spaniard foaming at the mouth with rage (a fun pastime for all the family) just state: you can have Gib after you hand back Ceuta and Melilla.

Ghost:
As I pointed out in my post, it's a question of honour and the Gibraltreans' decision to stay British is one that's to be honoured. So as far as I'm concerned the matter is closed. Both Spain and Gibralter need to move on and tackle common problems like illegal imigration, money laundering, drug trafficking.
I have no objections about returning Ceuta and Mellia but the Morocans are under the illusion that they'll inherit the cities as are. They won't and they screw them up. At least one could weakly advoacte that Spain won't screw up that much with Gibralter ;)
In any case, my own view is best to leave things as they are and ignore the demogagues from both sides (some Gibraltran politicans are just as insufferable)
We have more serious issues to grapple with than a big rock that juts out of the Straits of Hercules
xavier

xavier, it seems to me that the question here is what do the people of gibraltar want, and what they want is to stay british, something that they have made clear time and time again. i dont see how the brits can simply ignore the wishes of the people involved. and by the way, it's been a while, how are you doing these days?