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May 19, 2006
With a passing nod to Godwin's Law
Germans were not the problem. Even German nationalism was not the problem. And yet "Germany" was most definitely a problem. That problem being that Germany had been taken over by the Nazi party. Were many people confused on this point at the time? Certainly. Were there business interests and opportunists from across the political spectrum who thought they could continue to do business with Hitler's Germany? Regrettably so. Could anyone have seriously believed they could appease Hitlerism or dismiss the corporal with the funny moustache as somebody else's problem? Wishful thinking is nothing new. Did Hitlerism claim to speak for all of Germany? That was their line. Did non-Germans - and too many Germans - fall for it? Sadly, yes.
Should all this sound familiar? I should hope so.
Dean Esmay has another kick at the can explaining the difference between Islam and the jihadis. Fortunately, computers allow people to read type so no need to master joined up writing to follow the bouncing ball. Mixing metaphors there, I admit.
Bill's one-line response was perfect: "Well, because it's hard, and it makes their head hurt."
With apologies for the self-quoting.
For anyone thinking the Nazi comparison is a bit much Update: The Iranian "parliament" has passed a law requiring "standard Islamic garments" for Muslims and yellow badges for Jews (via lgf).
"There's no reason to believe they won't pass this," said Rabbi Hier. "It will certainly pass unless there's some sort of international outcry over this."
Banana-cream pies are flying Update: INDCent Bill comments.
It is the constructive solution part that is missing from so much of the talk on the right and the left. I imagine there were many people who believed that whether through nature or nurture Germans were reflexively authoritarian and prone to violence. Either at your throat or at your feet, as Churchill put it. Certainly Nazi Germany was bad PR for those trying to dispute the point. Thank heavens so many people fought and died to prove that view wrong. After all, the greatest German general of World War II turned out to be Dwight D. Eisenhower.
May 20, Plastic turkey Update: It looks like the Iranian sumptuary law story is false. It remains true, however, that non-Muslim grocery stores must identify themelves in their shop windows. It is also true that non-Muslims in Iran cannot hold senior posts in either the army or government and that Muslims "enjoy preference over non-Muslims in terms of admission to universities and colleges." It was hardly a stretch to believe the Iranian government had taken its next step toward Krisstalnacht.
I am also in lock-step agreement with Dave Price on this World War II analogy:
Shinto, it turns out, was no more fundamentally incompatible with liberal democracy than Christianity; the latter a catch-all term embracing everything from 18th-century Quaker anti-slavery activists to the Spanish Inquisition. Religious belief needs to be understood in context, people. The personal nihilism at the heart of Zen Buddhism was arguably even more important to the kamikaze ethic/sociopathology than Shinto and these days it is associated with Leonard Cohen and Marin County. Which is quite scary enough.
Posted by Ghost of a flea at May 19, 2006 09:11 AM
Comments
Great line about Eisenhower.
I'd also note that during World War II, we had little trouble telling the Japanese and the Chinese apart, for all that they "looked alike" to most Americans, Canadians, Brits, etc.
Posted by: Dean Esmay ![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.ghostofaflea.com/nav-commenters.gif)
at May 20, 2006 04:10 AM
You remember how we shook the Shinto out of Japan, and for that matter the Nazi out of Germany don't you? We basically held the nation of Japan over a cliff by its ankles, is it any wonder they started issuing fatwas redifining their government/religious relationship? Making Japan a "liberal democracy" was a nasty and disagreeable business.
I'm not sure these arguments are as disagreeable to the far-right, hawkish, "Islam is the enemy" crowd as I think you intend them to be.
Posted by: Solomon at May 20, 2006 11:21 PM
I am arguing against the idea that "Islam" is some unchanging monolith. Not against the notion it is going to take something calamitous for change to come about. This was, in fact, my point in raising the comparison with Japan and Germany in the 1930s. I believe the miracle of peaceful political transition in South Africa is probably unlikely to be repeated elsewhere for the simple reason that I do not believe we can be so lucky.
It is facing up to precisely this reality that people on the left and right are going to have to face instead of twiddling their thumbs with theological hair-splitting. The only question in my mind is whether this will happen before we lose a city or two. I am not optimistic.
Posted by: Ghost of a flea at May 20, 2006 11:37 PM
Understood. I guess I was taking your post as part of this ongoing blog spat, and perhaps it wasn't, really, since I do not think either Robert Spencer or Charles Johnson would disagree with what you have said.
Posted by: Solomon at May 20, 2006 11:47 PM
Let's say that I am optimistic in the long run. I figure in fifty years' time there will be Iranian boy-bands performing in Israeli shopping malls and McDonald's protests staged by women's studies grad students at the University of Riyadh. Basically the equivalent of Japanese anime and German Green city councillors. It is what we are going to have to go through to get there that troubles me. The longer we put it off I worry the worse it is going to be.
Posted by: Ghost of a flea at May 21, 2006 12:28 AM
Your statements mirror what my friend John Atkinson said here. John is about the most well read fellow I know when it comes to Early European (Byzantine) history. He's also on his second tour through Iraq in three years.
I agree with him most of the time and agree with your last comment there. We're going to likely have to hammer the impurities out of islam just as we did with Japan, the longer we wait, the bigger the problem will be and I suspect it'll take near total war in one or two countrys' cases to do so. Irshad Manji seems to get this, but she doesn't seem to express it, probably because of the grave implications. I don't see any other way to go about it short of just giving up. I fear that in many ways Europe has in fact given up.
Posted by: rmgill@mindspring.com at May 22, 2006 11:42 PM
Where I am differing with some of the folks in the LGF comments section is - in a grim irony - the same place I am disagreeing with the islamists. I do not believe the islamist version of Islam gets to define the whole of the religion. Yes, the folks with the money (that would by our "allies" and business partners, the Saudis) and the other folks with the money (that would be the Iranian theocracy, also at times armed and financed by us esp. if us includes France and Germany). In fact, I do not see the problem as a problem with Islam but rather a problem that Islam is having, i.e. fascism.
On a less world shattering note: This is the same disagreement I have with folks who tell me that Christians are opposed to same-sex married. No, Christians are not. Some Christians are and some Christians are not. For many Christians, myself included, it is an ethical obligation to support same-sex marriage. The fact that many Christians who disagree with me claim to speak for Christianity as a whole does not change that fact that they do not, in fact, speak for all Christians.
Posted by: Ghost of a flea at May 23, 2006 12:02 AM
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