The Pope is attempting to influence Canadian marriage law:
Pope John Paul II is about to issue guidelines to pressure politicians -- especially Catholic politicians -- to vote against the legislation. A Catholic politician, says Monsignor Peter Schonenbach, "cannot simply hang his feet up after he has said his prayers but he is supposed to see it as part of his way of life."
So, the three most influential players on the issue in Canada -- Chretien, Justice Minister Martin Cauchon and Paul Martin -- are all being asked to choose between state and their religion.
Papal intervention would make sense to me if Canada's Parliament was planning to legislate marriage sacraments in the Catholic Church. It is not. Civil marriage law has now changed in Ontario and British Columbia thanks to Canada's new(ish) constitution. These changes have no effect whatsoever on Catholic doctrine.
The Pope, however, is attempting to interfere in the civil rights of Canadians. He demonstrates a contempt for Canadian democracy, our constitutional freedoms and for the faith and practice of Canadians who are not Catholic.
And then... Chaos Stud discusses President Bush, gay marriage and the problem of imposing particular religious beliefs.
I don't care about your stupid religious beliefs, and if you truly don't care what people do behind closed doors, then stay outta their bitness.
Andrew Sullivan addresses the same issue ("Can we avoid it? "):
Many principled conservatives balk at amending the constitution on an issue that's clearly highly volatile in public opinion - and will continue to change in the years ahead. I have faith in this country and the fairness of its people. I cannot believe that they will ostracize gay citizens for ever in an impulsive and explosive constitutional amendment. I also cannot believe that this president wants to marginalize an entire group of citizens for good simply because of who they are. Certainly, if this amendment is pursued by this administration, it's the end of any relationship between the gay community and the Republican party. Those of us who have tried to build a bridge between the two are watching helplessly as the White House mulls burning it. They won't, will they? Or will they?
My post about my long-lost, idiotarian and very dear to me friend left out another gem. To those people who expressed irritation with Canada and a desire to escape to the freedom of the United States she said, "good riddance." I did not have the heart to tell her I would send a postcard the day I arrive in NYC. But the ravings of the "religious" Right who would speak for the morality of all Americans form a grotesque self-parody of the prejudices my idiotarian friend has toward the United States. Let us be clear about this: the liberty for which the civilized world is fighting must stand against the zealots of the Taliban, Wahhabi Arabia and our own Pharisees who would set up their "literalist" misreadings of scripture as an idol for us all.
Posted by the Flea at July 31, 2003 10:49 AMThis is, in my opinion, the main reason the US Constitution has seperation of church and state. Not just so people can practice whatever they want and not be prosecuted, but mainly to protect the state from religion. Religion has always been a powerful, influential force with its claws deep into politics. With proper seperation, religion should never have a say on national policies and laws. Yes it is hard for a politician to pray before going to bed and then the next morning debate laws with no regard to his beliefs, but that is their job. The Pope especially should never be heard in a political arguement. Not everyone in America is Catholic, so why should THE Catholic figurehead attempt to dictate our laws? I'm sure the same goes for Canada, not many people would be happy if the Pope starts telling the Christians, Buddist, Muslims, what have how to live. Fight to keep religion out of politics. Protect the government through separation.
Posted by: Chaos Stud at July 31, 2003 11:29 AMThis last paragraph is a great reminder for everyone who stands for freedom. Well said.
Posted by: Chaos Overlord at August 1, 2003 09:18 AMUhm, no. No, no, no, no, no.
In a pluralistic, tolerant, liberal society, everybody has a right to speak up for whatever he believes in. It is utterly and completely the right of all religious persons to argue for whatever moral views being made into law for whatever reason they want. Furthermore, suggesting that they have no right to do so is itself an assault on pluralism, democracy, liberalism, and tolerance.
The Catholic Church was instrumental in bringing down Apartheid in South Africa, both by speaking out forcefully against it and by putting people like Desmond Tutu into the Bishopric there.
The Catholic Church was instrumental in helping bring down the Soviet Union because of John Paul II's unrelenting, fearless criticism of its constant human rights violations.
The Catholic Church continues to speak out about slavery and countless human rights abuses around the world.
To suggest that the Pope has no right to speak out on this one moral issue, is to suggest he has no right to speak out on any moral issue.
Either that, or you're suggesting that he may only speak out on moral issues when he agrees with you and Andrew Sullivan... and me, for that matter.
No, no, no. This notion that religion must be kept separate from politics is pernicious, bigoted nonsense. If you value pluralism and tolerance and a truly liberal society, then you must accept the right of religious persons to argue for whatever laws they want, no matter whether you agree with their stance or not.
Anything less makes you a religious bigot.
If you want to disagree with the Pope, disagree with him. Lots of Catholics do. But don't suggest he hasn't got a right to speak out on moral issues, because he does--and his doing so is not a threat to your freedom any more than anyone else speaking out on such issues is.
Posted by: Dean Esmay at August 3, 2003 08:17 AMI make a number of remarks on these issues following the Red Lobster post above.
Posted by: Nicholas Packwood at August 4, 2003 07:19 AM